d_a_r_a | Is Jesus the only way?

Is Jesus the only way?

Many people say that he is. I'm looking into this question for the first time with an open mind, willing to accept God's truth whatever that may be. With prayer and meditation and research I know God will reveal the truth to me if I persevere. Here's one interesting sermon I've come across in my search of the web so far:
http://crestwooducc.org/sermon/reflections.htm

She seems to lean towards the answer being no. But I think a more cogent point that she makes is that we can't really know for sure and that is okay. Christianity is not supposed to be about having all the right answers and enforcing them. Christianity is about following Jesus' example, loving people, insisting on justice, being selfless, forgiving others etc. If we focused more on living like Christ and worried less about what happens when we die I think the church would have a much stronger witness to the world.

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Look, maybe you should research one radical view at a time, okay? You don't want to get swept into something you want no part of. Don't even ask me to not be "too concerned" about you if you are going to take a questioning-of-essential-Christian-beliefs-fest. Be patient with this truth-seeking. Figure out Hell or not Hell first, than, if you must, figure out Jesus as the only way or universalism.

deep, deep love,
jake

Sorry, this is me. I don't take things one at a time. I'm a multi-tasker. Please be comforted that through all of this my faith in Jesus - my personal relationship with him is completely unshaken. In fact, I feel closer to him in so many ways than I ever have before. In a way it's like Jesus and I are finally taking the dialogue to a deeper level - kind of like when you really start to get to know a person here on earth and feel comfortable moving past the superficiality of mere aquaintance into deeper (and sometimes more troubled) waters. When you truly fall in love with someone you don't limit the topics of conversation to one at a time - you want to know everything about them and you want to know it all now! So it is with me and God right now.

You make good points, which we Christians need to address. That said, Christ tells us that this world is not our home and that our citizenship lies in Heaven. He also says store up treasures in Heaven and Paul says to keep our eyes fixed on the prize (which is Heaven.) I would argue that Christians need to think more about Heaven, and less about their personal holiness and behavioral betterment. We are not going to get perfect on the Earth, but we can lead others to Christ, that they, as well as ourselves, might be eventually perfected. But you are right, our problems would be solved if we acted more like Jesus. Therefore, let us act like Jesus and devote our ambitions to evangelism!

Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words *if* necessary.

Love and self sacrifice speak volumes to non-believers while words are just words.

Just remember that Jesus identifies himself as The Word. He has ordained the written and spoken word for his ministry. Therefore, I would more likely say "Use words whenever approrpiate," as opposed to the negative-towards-words saying, "Use words *if* necessary."

Actually in the original language "The Word" actually is an active verb which means the word in action. Or in other words, let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify the Father.

lol, I'm not denying that we should act out our words, friend :) In action or not, it is still word, and thus, the spoken and written word are sacred to God and His purposes. Was not Creation commanded into being by His Speech?

You know - I don't think we're actually disagreeing here at all. I think we're just comeing at the same thing from two slightly different angles. :)

We certainly disagree if you believe "Use words *if* necessary." I try to be a talker, like our Jesus. Not that personality diversity does not afford some to be more tangibly vocal than others :)

maybe it's just a guy thing, vocally

One more thought -

Christians need to think more about Heaven, and less about their personal holiness and behavioral betterment.

How about we just think more about God and meditate on who he is, his goodness, his love, his wisdom etc. etc. and let the rest just fall in line with that. I've finally realized that my personal holiness and behavioral betterment are not actually things I have the personal power to directly affect. But when I open myself up to the wonder that is God - and allow his power and love to fill me - it's a natural outpouring of that love for my personal holiness and behavioral betterment to fall in line with his will. It's so much easier this way. Why do we always have to make it so hard - make it about *our* efforts and strive after it when it's free for the taking if we just let go and give up trying to control our own lives?

Christianity is not supposed to be about having all the right answers and enforcing them.

Now only if people had been thinking like this during the last election.

It still amazes me how the Republicans have convinced the country that they're the party of God. Jesus was a liberal hippie. Those that killed him were the first Republicans.

*laughs* Well, I'm not quite sure that I'd go so far as to say that Jesus was a liberal hippie - but he certainly was extremely radical for his time.

According to the story, he seemed to embrace the liberal agenda that most conservatives hate. He hung out with the poor, the sick, the whores. He advocated helping these people instead of turning a blind eye to them and pretending that they didn't exist.

Henry Rollins has a great bit about it. When I find what CD or DVD it's on, I'm going to type it up.

uhh... but Jesus did not encourage them to be prostitutes or tolerate prostituion once they came to him. And of course, by not tolerating I mean that he forgave them and accepted them but did not tolerate their sin, nor will allow that sin to enter with them when they enter Heaven.

Meanwhile, many liberals encourage prostitution, or, if not in the literal sense of the word, most liberals encourage sexual immorality in some form of another. I would also agree that many conservatives do equal evil to the sexually immoral by distancing themselves from them. So, as far as stereotypes of conservatism and liberalism go, I would place Jesus at a healthy spot between them, or in his own category... You see, you are fighting against Republicans using Christ to power up their own agendas... just be sure that you are not fighting fire with fire, using Christ for an agenda of discounting republicans.

Meanwhile, many liberals encourage prostitution, or, if not in the literal sense of the word, most liberals encourage sexual immorality in some form of another

See, the problem here is that morality is relative. What I find to be immoral, you might find to be perfectly moral. That's why it's been said that you can't legistlate morality. Liberals do not "encourage" anything of this sort. What they "encourage" is that people have the right to follow their own set of morals, as long as it doesn't hurt others.

You see, you are fighting against Republicans using Christ to power up their own agendas... just be sure that you are not fighting fire with fire, using Christ for an agenda of discounting republicans.

My only agenda is pointing out that the people trying to force their religion on me don't even bother to follow it themselves. It's an astonishingly easy thing to do.

"See, the problem here is that morality is relative."

I am sorry. I was hoping that, since you seemed to defend Jesus, that you believed what he had to say about morality.

With an elitist ass comment like you just gave, I'd wager that I know more about him than you do.

Elitist? Yes, I do struggle with pride, but that has hardly been the relevant case in this discussion. I claim no worthy comment except for my repeating what Christ has already said of himself and people.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man ‘unclean...’
Mark 15:19-20

Okay that's enough from you two - take it elsewhere if you want to argue about this. Me like peace, me like quiet. :)

Jake - meet Scott, he's an atheist - don't expect him to be on the same page as you are - he's in a whole other book entirely. He's also incredibly confrontational - you've been forewarned.

Scott - meet Jake - he's a fairly conservative Christian but he's also a caring person and while I may not agree with him on everything I don't find him elitist or judgmental.

That being said you both have your own journals where you can debate until you're both blue in the face...have fun.

I do apologize for using your journal. I actually could not stop thinking about how innappropriate it might be, after I had already left Scott a comment, to use your journal space to clarify Christ's known character to someone who I otherwise do not even know, and who, otherwise, you clearly do know. I figured though, once I engaged, it would be quite rude to suddenly become silent, unless, of course, I was asked, which you just did. Please understand, I have a hard time keeping silent, whether I should or not, when I think people are missing some wonderful knowledge of my Beloved. The tongue is a stubborn thing to tame.

It wasn't inappropriate or rude - that would be if you two kept at it despite me asking you not to. :)

The thing that always has intrigued me about the UCC is the availibility of sermons like these.

Ever thought of what Jesus would think of conservative evangelicals?

-Eugene

*laughs* I don't suppose he'd have a whole lot in common with most conservative evangelicals.

Well, you know where I stand on THAT :)
But we dig jesus, we are down with jesus. Following his example is a great way to live your life. Over here in the heart of the bible belt, we get yelled at and called names because we don't go to church twice a week. I wish more people WOULD follow his example around here. Religion to me is deeply personal and lately, worshiping publicly makes me sick. There's something almost vile about it. I don't know why I feel that way. I believe that one's personal relationship with their god shouldn't be flaunted or exploited. These folks seem to think as long as they attend services, blindly follow whoever their pastor may be, and bow their heads, that they are in, that's all it takes. They focus on a heaven while missing what is right in front of their faces. This place that we get to live in, I can't imagine a place more beautiful. But if there is such a place, and there is such a power as god, I really don't think you will burn for opening the mind he gave you.
We believe in one place, if you can even call it that, that everyone and everything passes to whenever they die. All the pain and joy you have inflicted on others will be realized and felt when you die, sortof an awareness. To me, that would be hell, for one who has caused nothing but harm to others and vice versa for heaven.
Wow I really rambled there. So that's my two cents!

Jesus digs public worship, as he has demonstrated by recorded example of public worship participation. But if you need to take a break, do what you need to do.

Oh I wasn't' saying that he doesn't like public worship, I was speaking of the way he lived his life.
And you could say I'm permantently on break. :)

I'd rather not, friend. :(

Well, wether you say it or no, it's true.

It's a question I've asked several times, and I always end up with the same answer ... I just can't believe Jesus is the *only* way. That sure rules out a whole lot of ways and a whole lot of people! I do think that following Jesus in some manner is apparently my way. And the last sentence of your post sums up my beliefs quite well. :)

1. I think what struck me most is that the writer of that sermon did not refer to the Nag Hammadi text by the term "gnostic gospels." If I'm remembering correctly [we can't assume; it's been a while] that is always how I've heard them called, and they do include a Gospel According to *gasp* Mary Magdalene.

2. I think an important distinction needs to be made here, in that it is my understanding of the Christian religion that the only way to God is through Jesus. That has not changed as far as I know. What has changed over time is the concept of what that actually means, whether it is because of his sacrificial death, because of his unique relationship with God, through modeling our lives on his, or something else. But the person Jesus is a core of Christianity that has always been necessary for the path of the divine. I think you'll find some really good information in Karen Arstrong's book [A History...]. She discusses a lot of the early Christian ideas, how they evolved, and so forth. Another fairly readable book is Elaine Pagels' Gnostic Gospels. She was one of the first scholars who was allowed to study the Ng Hammadi texts, though I have to admit I don't remember much about the book. I have it at home if you can't find it an want to borrow it.

3. Yes! Yes, yes. Religion isn't created spot on, cut and dried. =) It evolves over time, changes to suite the needs of a given people in a given place at a given time. Consider that the first gospel, Mark, is typically dated at 70 AD/CE/whatever. That's 40 years after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. The others were written after that. No one really completely agreed about what Jesus' life and death meant at first. That evolved. Consider the idea of the virgin birth didn't show up until several hundred years after Jesus' death. Consider that "virgin" has different connotations in Hebrew and Greek. Consider that the Nicene Creed was not written until 325 CE. Until then, there was no "orthodox" belief, there was no "right" and "wrong," but there were many competing ideas about Jesus, God, their relationship to each other, their relationship to humans, and all the things that now Christians assume as basic tenets. Consider that even after the Nicene Creed was adopted, there was still trouble with conflicting views, leading at last to the first split between Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, and then later on into all the forms of protestantism. Isn't is a wonderfully complex and fascinating mix?!

4. I believe in reverent actions leading to communion with the divine. In other words, actions, activities, even daily tasks, when approached reverently and with a desire to commune with whatever god you believe in, can in fact become paths to that god. Perhaps that is what is meant by modeling one's life on Jesus, or following his example, or being spiritual. By keeping an open spirit, one can be surrounded and enveloped by the ineffable.

5. Have you ever read Dante's Divine Comedy? Not just the Inferno, but also the Purgatorio and the Paradisio. They're not essentially about ordering the cosmos according to type of sin and having people in the proper place, as is often assumed from only reading the Inferno. The whole of the Comedy is about a personal spiritual journey that leads through the deepest hell, then a climb through Purgatory and onward up to meet God. The poems are, of course, informed by Dante's personal religious and political beliefs, as well as the political and spiritual climate of the time. But that's true for Augustine, too, and he's pretty important to Western Christian doctrine. ;-) Anyhow, just food for thought.

Wow - that's lots o' information. Thanks. I'll be sure to check out some of those books once I unbury myself from the stack I already have. ;)

yeah, I know. so much to read, so little time. ;-) I have to admit I'm devouring Armstrong's book, though. it's dense, but there's so much really good information there, I can hardly put it down.

whoa. hot topic. ;-)

Yep, apparently. ;)

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lot's of stuff there

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